"The problem here is a totalitarian uniformity, a cult-like mentality such that even allies are enemies if they fail to follow the Exact Party Line. " - Phyllis Chesler

Saturday, August 16, 2008

Saddleback Opinions

I write this as I watch the Saddleback forum live.

Here's my feelings and impressions on what I have heard thus far:

Senator Obama has wonderful rhetoric to say...he spoke in very idealistic ways and very lawyerly. This attribute makes for a great spiritual leader but that isn't the job he is applying for.

Senator McCain is actually giving answers to the questions.

With all the hype from the Obama camp about "Change" the only candidate I see showing real change from the status quo is Senator McCain who is answering the questions with details, instead of side-stepping and giving flowery and inspiring answers.

Now to Senator McCains answers themselves. Thus far I have to say I firmly disagree with his views on abortion and the supreme court. He's just plain wrong. PERIOD!

I will NEVER understand why any polititian feels they have any right to legislate any law under any branch of the government that will NEVER EVER EVER affect their life in any way shape or form, for the good or for the bad. Whether I terminate a pregnancy or decide to marry a woman will NEVER NEVER NEVER affect another person's life but my own. It can never hurt another person.

With that last statement let me just say right here and now that if ANYONE comments that I would be hurting a baby I will delete that comment. I will and that's the law on this blog.

Having the procedure to terminate a pregnancy is and never will be something any woman, be they young or older ever makes quickly or lightly. It stays with each woman for the rest of her life even if she has decided that it is not a life and goes ahead with the termination of that pregnancy. She always lives with the what ifs and no one but that woman can ever know what that feels like and who are YOU to judge that person. If you are a Christian (which I am not) then by the word of your g-d follow his words "Judge not lest ye be judged" and live your life to your own accord. But do not think you will use MY BLOG to come and preach your judgement and hate by accusing me or another woman of killing babies.

The bottom line is that what I do in my bedroom and my body is my own to decide. And what I do with my body is a medical decision to make with my doctor and my g-d and no one else!

With so much happening in the world today and so many problems in our own country that do affect each and everyone of us, these particular issues should be taken off the political table and the politicians should be embarrased to be talking about them.

One of the comments I respect the most came from Senator McCain when he spoke about how we should never have been told to go shopping after 9/11 and that what should have been done was been told to give service around the world (paraphrasing) thereby continuing to show the world just how great we are as a people and nation. While stating this is one of our greatest failures McCain prefaced that even with that failure we still do this better than any other nation on earth...give of ourselves and help others who are less fortunate than us.

When Senator Obama answered this question, he made similar comments but his ideology was that we don't do this and that he needs to save us as a people to get us back to this kind of society. He is very very wrong. And he forgets to put our country in context with the rest of the nations on this earth and that with that juxtiposition we ARE the greatest nation in giving and helping.

If challenged on that last issue I will go and get the stats on how much % we make up in the worlds population and just how much we give and where...although I truly hope you don't make me do that. It's a lot of work that you can google yourself.

"We have our flaws and failings but we have the most unusual experiment in history and I am proud to be a part of it." -- McCain

"I believe America's best days are ahead of us." -- McCain

Look, it's no secret who I am NOT voting for this election. But I write to show you my process. ONE of the BIGGEST problems I have with Senator Obama is how he directs his speech. It's manipulatively clever in that is almost sounds positive but is really poison. He and those that follow him are directly destroying the hearts and minds of the American people. Anyone who practices in the holistic arts knows that this is all you need to do to destroy the entire body and in this case the body is our nation.

While I ferverently disagree on the issues of abortion rights and gay marriage rights with Senator McCain, over all ,his message is the more positive, the one filled with more positive energy, even in disagreement he is more positive.

There is a book I just started to read by Larry Dossey, M.D. "Be Careful What You Pray For...You Just Might Get It". In this book he talks about the power of words and intent. Sadly most humans are pulled to the negative. But I ask that you have an open mind to this subject and really examine the words and intent in Senator Obama's answers and honestly compare them with the intent of Senator McCain's words and answers and answer honestly to yourself which has the most positive message to give us.


Drowsey Monkey said...

I just stated something like this on Barbara's blog ... with all due respect, I don't understand the obsession American has with their presidential candidates religious beliefs. It's very odd to me and makes me uncomfortable.

I listened to some of it tonight and even felt embarrassed at times. It seemed kinda cheesy.

We aren't allowed to ask a person's religious beliefs in a job interview so not sure why politicians have to go thru this. It has no reflection on how they'll do their job, which as I said, is why we don't ask it in job interviews unless the person is applying to be a minister or something.

Let's face it, the religious right has become like a huge corporation with amazing media savvy. Not sure it reflects how the majority of Americans feel. If it does, then I'm really uncomfortable.

Rara Avis said...

Your forceful opinion that abortion affects no one but yourself neglects to consider the man involved. From experience I can say that it had a deep and life long-impact, exacerbated by the powerlessness of knowing I couldn't do anything about it.

Lauren said...

Rava,MY BODY MY LIFE, MY DECISION and ZERO say from anyone else PERIOD. Your only part is in the giving of the sperm when it comes to this issue.

What you are talking about is not the abortion issue but your lack of a proper relationship with a woman who shared your values.

You take ZERO responsibility for yourself, your actions and your decisions for being in a relationship with a woman who would not discuss what she decided to do with her body with you first.

It was very much her choice to not tell you or to tell you and you get NO ONE DAMN say over it.

Next time choose a partner more wisely, in that you choose someone who shares your values so that you do not find yourself in that spot again.

And next time make sure you don't get yourself into a place where you impregnate a partner that would not want to be pregnant.

Use a condom and another form of birth control. Otherwise shut your mouth and quick you bitching because all you seem to want is control over other's lives instead of taking responsibility for your own and your own actions that got you into the place you say was "unfair" to you.

Drowsey, Not quite sure where you are going with your statement as I didn't see or hear much of this last night from the candidates. The moderator is an evangelical priest and was able to create this deal with the candidates to bring this forum together and why should he not have that opportunity like any other person who would bring an idea like the one we say last night simply because he is a preacher?

We are a nation built on Judeo/Christian beliefs and it is a big part of our culture. I am not in the least bit embarrasses. And if you look at your culture's values you will too see how much it is a part of the ethics of your government too. They just use different words or avoid certain topics to dance around the very same values. Your country is very routed in the foundations of American citizens, with some variations as it was a break away-type of state/country from the US.

I strongly disagree that religion won't affect how a person governs. In a utopian world it should not affect, but it does and it always has. Even when we try to take it out of government it just becomes another name but the same is always done in "that" name.

I thought you said in an earlier comment somewhere on my blog that you don't like labels like left and right and don't believe in them. But today you write that the religious right has become a huge corporation...

When one person steps out of power, another group or person always takes that place in that vaccuum and becomes the target. This is life. It can be the "religious right" the extreme radical left, communists etc...

Personally I think the actions of a candidate is much more important than rhetoric.

However I must say that your comment is extremely well-thought out and respectful and valid.

And I can tell you without divulging names that there are many people who claim online to be part of the "religious right" who have participated in many of the items I wrote about in my post that I am against the polititians being a part of. As for me, what you see is what you get.

Thank you for your very thoughtful comment.

Lauren said...

Drowsey, As I am up and the news is replaying Obama's part of the night, I am hearing this with a new set of ears, mostly because of the things you said, are leaning me to listen for them and yes I am hearing a lot of answers directed at the candidates beliefs rooted in some of his religious beliefs.

This didn't seem to stand out to me before.

Just wanted to make that statement...without prejudice.

swile67 said...

I was able to watch last night's forum too...and like drowsey I commented on barbara's blog but was very tired so don't know if it made sense! I actually thought Obama's comments on abortion were interesting and it was one of the more direct answers from him. I find it interesting that the majority of those making the laws/discussions about abortion are men! They don't understand our bodies and that is our right. This next statement may seem hypocritical, but here goes!!! As a Christian I do believe abortion is wrong. However, we are not in the shoes of those who have had or consider abortions. Yes, I believe those who have abortions think long and hard about it. If I was raped and got pregnant, I would most likely consider an abortion. I have no idea how I would react. So, I don't want to judge someone. I also don't agree with the approach some Christians take regarding their pro-life stand - not the best example to the rest of us Christians. I do believe life is precious and we must be careful not to abuse that gift. (including merciless killings in war, terroism, etc.) Many of our forefathers worked hard on women's rights to give us the freedom we now have.
Yes, it seemed McCain was more direct yet I feel they both said what people wanted them to say in that context. Although aren't all our politicians in every country the same!!:)
It is interesting how faith plays an important role in the US more than in Canada. Yes, our country was founded on the same Judeo-Christian faith as the US and I do think we need to get back to those roots in Canada. We have lost a sense of values and morals here that come from faith. In my opinion, we have become too tolerant and too afraid to step on the toes of everyone else. That is one reason I like the leadership in the US even if there are things I don't agree with. You all don't seem so "wishy washy!" :) ANyways, those are my 2 cents!:) I'm glad I was able to watch last night because it gave me a synopsis of the candidates platforms. I have been loosely following the campaign so this helped me last night. It is important for us Canadians to follow the US politics as it does affect us! I am curious why Rick Warren wanted to have this at his church. I am a bit cynical of his motives. Have a good day! Karyne

Lauren said...

Karyne, WOW WOW and WOW! I am in awe of your openness and honesty. It's refreshing to say the least. That wonderful energy comes through so clearly that I honestly feel as though I am about to cry right now. Not in a bad way at all though.

About the pastor...I kind of thought the same thing. But don't most folk want the limelight in some way? I never heard of him before...if that means anything to you. Obviously he is known in certain circles or he wouldn't have been able to pull the forum off. It's interesting that both parties agreed to this. Senator Obama used to espouse that he would debate McCain anytime anywhere but has refused each offer McCain has made so far. This was the only forum he has agreed to share the stage with McCain.

Again thank you for your well thought out words on this subject.

swile67 said...

you are welcome:)

swile67 said...

PS. Yes, Saddleback church and Rick Warren are well known in Christian circles. His book is okay, but it is one of those ones that everyone "gets on the bandwagon" with. I don't like that!! I have never heard him speak before. Not what I expected. His church does had some great programs, epecially with regards to the youth. In his book he talks about the fact that it is not about us...mmmm...it sure is about him isn't it. He was apparently on the cover of Time- I haven't seen the article yet- and is going to be on Larry King. I am house sitting so have access to CNN. I am finished today so won't be able to see the Larry King interview- oh maybe I can watch in online! I just think these Christian leaders with influence and power need to be very careful not to abuse it in the name of God! I'm not sure your opinion of Billy Graham, but he was so humble and I don't think he ever abused his leadership. Anyways, that is a little bit of background info for you!

Da Old Man said...

Lot to take in.

Re: abortion I thought your reply You take ZERO responsibility for yourself, your actions and your decisions for being in a relationship with a woman who would not discuss what she decided to do with her body with you first.
was wonderful. While I am personally anti-abortion, you put it in perspective. Too much of the responsibility is put on women. The problem would disappear if men stepped up to do the right thing, whether by using condoms, etc.

I know very well a woman who had 2 abortions, and she often cries and wonders "what if." I can almost guarantee the man involved has rarely, if ever, had a second thought about it.

Lauren said...

Karyne, Thank you for that updated information. It's funny the things we know and how much we realize along the way that we don't know too :-) And yes I think that religious leaders must be very careful in these situations. Church and state are separate in this country for a good reason. But that doesn't mean they don't get to have opinions either. It's complicated to say the least.

D.O.M., Glad you could see the meat of my argument. Yes, women always get left holding the bag. Even if the man was initially supportive who will get stuck raising those children later on if he bails? And THAT happens all too often too. And that is partially the fault of the women who choose men like this. Personal responsibility. Look at me getting all Bill Cosby.

Drowsey Monkey said...

Ummm...Lauren, this statement, "Your country is very routed in the foundations of American citizens, with some variations as it was a break away-type of state/country from the US"

So not true my dear. Our country was never a part of the US or a break-away state. This is one of the MANY things that irritate the hell out of me when some Americans start making these kinds of statements about Canada. I love ya and all ... but check out wikipedia for a shortened history lesson on our country.

Judeo/Christian yes,but our laws are rooted in British law. We fought off the Americans in the war of 1812 and technically didn't break away from the Dominion until The Canada Act of 1982. Yes, 1982.

Our government is rooted in the British style as well, hence we have a Prime Minister not a President. Plus we have a Governor General, which is the Queen's Representative in Canada. Plus, the Queen is on all our money and our military follows The Queen's Regulations and Orders. I could go on, but I won't.

As for Obama/McCain - I just found it odd when an evangelical movement has so much sway in a political debate. And in Canada...it wouldn't happen, just like it wouldn't happen in Britain.




Lauren said...

Drowsey, MANY areas of your country, towns provinces etc...were started from breakaway Americans who then became a part of Canada hence breakaway state. For instance the Nova Scotia area. You misinterpretted what I said.

So in that way much of your values come from those here in the US but obviously aren't the same as here or those people would not have left. They left to start something different but brought many of the same basic rooted values we have here which is why we are so similar but certainly not the same.

Lauren said...

Drowsey, OH thank you for the links and the other info. It's always interesting to learn more about that stuff. I LOVE history. While others hated that subject it was where I could always pull an A.

Drowsey Monkey said...

Most of Nova Scotia was founded by the Scottish and the Irish ... of which my family is a descendant. Yes, some Americans did move there, but they were mostly Brits as well way back then.

Trust me, we have more differences they you, or many Canadians, realize. There was a fascinating study did a few years ago that highlights this. I'll send it to you when I find it...it's illuminating.

Lauren said...

Drowsey, it seems like you take great offense to anything American being of influence on/in Canada. That's kind of sad...if that's the case. My point is that we have a lot of similar values from similar beginings. What is so offensive and upsetting about that? As far as where your family is from and where they settled, again very similar to the make-up here too. Hmmm

But yes please send the info as I love that kind of stuff.

Chat Blanc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chat Blanc said...

Lauren I've so enjoyed the discussion you've created here! I've not seen the Saddleback special so I was very interested to read your reactions and perspectives.

There's much I could say but a great deal of it would be redundant at this juncture, so I'll just add this--I have soooo much respect for your strength of conviction and love that you are able to article your opinions with passion. It's hella cool! :)


Lauren said...

My Ms. Chatty, Thank you. And of course they are just my OPINIONS. I love how you are outspoken in your own way too. I enjoy your blog very much!

Drowsey Monkey said...

I'm not offended because I don't dislike Americans just because of where they live, just like I don't dislike anyone based on where they are from. I just sometimes feel like sometimes ... some people ignore that we are not a part of America. That doesn't mean I dislike America, it means I'm proud of who we are. Just like if you travelled to China, and they asked if New York was part of Canada ... you'd say no and explain why that is. You wouldn't do it because you were insulted, you'd just be clarifying. Which is what I did, albeit I did it with some frustration.

Lauren said...

Drowsey, OK. You made your point, sore point but made it. We get it, you're not the 51st state...although I personally never stated you were...not in this post or set of comments anyway ;-p

Sandi said...

While I may not agree with your choice of candidate, I totally agree with the issue of abortion and same-sex marriage. I am not "pro-abortion", I am pro-choice. If a daughter or friend wanted an abortion, I would probably try to help her through it and hope that she have and keep the baby. But I would totally support her decision to abort. As for gay marriage, I know many gay couples who have stronger relationships than most of the heterosexuals I know. And, like you said, it doesn't impact my life one whit if same-sex couples marry. It's none of my business.

Lauren said...

Sandi, HERE HERE!!

Jessica said...

Good topic. I didn't see the broadcast, but I've heard and seen clips. I honestly don't particularly like either of the candidates.

I agree, and I've always felt that social issues such as marriage, and abortion should be left off of the political table. What people do in their own lives...with their own bodies etc is their decision. It bothers that these are huge issues for the candidates. Let's worry about energy, and the economy...not who people are sleeping with!

swile67 said...

While on holidays in Northern Ireland, I sent to the Ulster American Folk museum, which used to be the Melon homestead- yes, Mellon of the bank empire. The Mellon family immigrated to Baltimore from N. Ireland than to Pittsburg...anyways, my point being that yes, our countries both had many immigrants come from the United Kingdom. I hear what you are saying Lauren...we have similar values and similar roots. Our countries were founded on similar principles. In addition, both our countries have aboriginal peoples that were here first!!:) I also understand Drowsey Monkey's perspective as a fellow Canadian. Although I have found through my travels in Europe, that most people are aware we are separate countries. In N. Ireland they actually can tell I'm Canadian! In France, they weren't sure! I found most Europeans just say we are all from "America" which I learned they meant the shortform North America, not the US! I make the mistake often of saying Ireland when referring to the North, which can be a bone of contention for some. It is a different countryafter all. I too am proud to be Canadian. I think for me what I get frustrated about is the limited knowledge some Amercians have about Canada. From climate to geography to politics. I don't say this to offend in anyway, because I too love Americans and have American cousins! I think because we are close neighbours we expect more. I realize I am generalizing. I have funny stories from some of my American friends about misconceptions of life in Canada. But, underneath it is frustrating because I think we do know more about American culture, etc. than Americans know about Canada. We are exposed to more of the American media plus, in addition, we learn about your history, geography, etc. in school. Anyways, I will leave this too, but please don't be offended. Our countries/people are very similar yet very different! But, that makes it more interesting! We need each other and what goes on in both of our countries matters to the other!

Now an update on Rick Warren....I think I said I felt he was out to gain something from this forum. Well, I read the Time Magazine article and sure enough he is! He has come up with some "peace" plan in third world countries, such as Rwanda. He needs the support from both political parties for his various world projects! So, there you have it! And both candidates probably want the vote from the evangelical community! This Time magazine article is very interesting if you can get a copy of it...it is from August 18/08 Have a great day...by the way...love the pic of the baby you helped to bring into this world...very sweet!

swile67 said...

oops...have some typos in comment above like in first sentence...it's meant to say went!