It's very simple. I don't believe in being a hypocrite. I believe that it's no place for the government to make any decisions for anyone on a person level. Bodily integrity included, sex, sexual choices, love, marriage. None of it.
It's perfectly fine to have your own opinions, choices and beliefs on medical abortion. And I say instill them in your children and live with the consequences of what you instill in them or not and do not push them on anyone else. PERIOD.
It's not for anyone else to intrude on another LIVING BREATHING WOMAN'S life, to shove their beliefs and demand they live as they see fit in any way shape or form no matter what you think medical abortion is.
There's no way around this. It is not something that should be legislated ever for any reason.
How dare anyone anywhere demand I take any medical test of any kind making any decisions over my body, my healthcare and my life.
You cannot hoot and hollar against Obamacare because it has death panels and makes life and death decisions made for you by the government and run around screaming at other people that they must keep a pregnancy by the rule of the government and that they must have a test by the rule of the government (ie: ultrasound before they have a medical abortion) and cry foul about Obamacare. You just cannot. It is a clear contradiction of your espoused values.
And what is worse is that most who are against medical abortions are also against any form of birth control. They will protest that they aren't but I watch their tweets and blogs. And they are lying to you to get you over to their side step by step. It's scummy.
Whatever you want to do or not do with your body is none of my business. None of us are to act as g-d. We are only supposed to live our own lives as g-d tells us, not impose on others our interpretations of g-ds words onto others. THAT is against g-d.
I will never sit in judgement of another women for her choice. Never. For I have no idea the emotional turmoil she is living. But SHE is the living breathing human being and I squarely put her first.
Politics be damned. I don't care if Sanger was a racist or not. Sanger is dead!
And there is a better way than to legislate medical demands upon women and better ways than to scream at women who want to terminate a pregnancy and it starts with MEN!
Teach your boys who will grow up to be men, not to prey on girls and women who are insecure and lonely and want to be loved. Teach them not to unzip their pants and shut down their brains and enter a woman's body and risk getting her pregnant. Fathers, love your daughters and support them with kind words so that they don't go out there seeking love from stupid immature sex hopping men, thinking that at least they will have 5 minutes of the feeling of love and attention from a man, that you did not give them.
If this was truly being done, rather than shaming our youth and omitting facts about pregnancy prevention you could bet your last dollar the unwanted pregnancy rate would drop.
And you can stop with the ideological propaganda calling prochoicers abortionists. It's pure folly, nonsense and hateful lies. It's YOUR biggest lie.
Monday, January 10, 2011
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19 comments:
.. except that most people who are anti-abortion believe that the fetus is a life, just as the woman's is. So in that respect the act would be murder, and we do have laws against it.
I think it all comes down to that. Some look at it as women's rights to what to do with their bodies and some look at it as a baby's right to live.
Both sides have a point. It's a tough one for sure.
Bette Jo, accept that it's not a life yet. It's a fetus and there is no comparison of a bunch of blood and tissue to a full fledged human being. But furthermore the issue is that no one should be legislating this ever under any circumstances. PERIOD. It's a private matter that has to do within a woman's body. PERIOD end of discussion.
Well, end of discussion for you maybe. :) But having had 2 children I guarantee they were very much human beings before they were born. Just sayin'. Oh and I am VERY MUCH FOR birth control. Got my tubes tied actually, the ultimate in birth control. Believe it or not - I don't have a firm anti-abortion stance. I have always been pro-choice but my feelings started to change after I had kids and experienced a pregnancy, saw an ultrasound, etc. Plus, I work in a lab, and years ago when I actually worked with specimens and not in I.T., I saw miscarriages come in, in jars. Some of them were tiny perfect human beings. So there are many factors that go into someone's views on the subject. We can differ, no problem here. I won't try to convince you I'm right, you have the right to your opinion. But part of life is allowing other viewpoints to be considered. But then - I'm one of those people that has a hard time with black and white about a lot of things, I see a lot of gray.
Bette Jo, although I disagree w/LaurAyn on the 'bunch of blood and tissue', I do agree that we don't have a 'life'. When I compare a woman walking around with a single cell - suggesting they both have the same rights is just silly. But your position can't be held any other way, it has to be silly. And silly is not a way to justify a law. I agree with much of LaurAyn's post. The anti-abortion stance is just another way to use the state to control individual liberty.
Bette Jo, the child is not an independent life until it is capable of independent life - then we have something to discuss with regard to rights. I will always choose to acknowledge the rights that are inherent in the mother over the POTENTIAL rights that might exist some day in the future.
Bette Jo, there is no part of "growing up" that puts demands on making another live by someone else's beliefs. That is why it is the end of the discussion. As I said in my post, everyone is entitled to their beliefs and to live by them for themselves and to impart them on their own children etc. etc...but where you or anyone else is not allowed to go is to legislate your beliefs upon another woman.
I too have seen pictures. As Tracy said I too agree, it is a POTENTIAL life which is not the same as a human being that is separate from the womb, walking around, breathing with all it's human parts developed.
Abortion is a normal thing. We call it miscarriage to make ourselves feel better but the proper medical term is spontaneous abortion.
Women have the right to a medically induced one, not to be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.
You also have the right not to believe in it...however that is for yourself only and not to impose on others. As you had that CHOICE to make, you must also respect it for others who do not come to your conclusions.
This is about government control and government rights.
Lauren - if you were not going to permit discussion (you keep saying it is the end of discussion) why did you leave comments open? But that's okay. You don't have to agree with me. But saying abortion is a normal thing is a little out of the box. Yes, spontaneous abortion, threatened abortion, those are things that happen in nature. A physician going in and removing a fetus is not natural.
Also Tracy - I do not know of a single woman ever - who has known she was pregnant when the baby was a single cell, or went and paid for an abortion at that point so since you say my point is silly - I will say yours is ridiculous.
When a baby is aborted it is much more likely to have begun to form recognizable human organs, limbs, etc. If it makes you feel better to believe it is just a little ball of cells, believe that. But it is simply not true. Personally I think that if women saw an ultrasound before they had an abortion - many of them would not do it.
So - I'm done commenting on this subject. Lauren - unless you insult me personally you will not lose me as a friend. But when I disagree with your stance on something I will say so. When you are allowing comments I assume you are open to discussion.
I want the governemnt to stay far, far, away from me and my body. However, I DO see a pregnancy as a life (albiet in a non-independent form). I wish abortion was not used as birth control. I wish love, committment and honesty were in style. I wish fathers - and mothers too - encouraged their kids to respect all human life. In my ideal world, abortions would be very rare. Instead, we have cultural chaos, consfusion about marriage and other traditions, multicultural talk that does not dissuade hate at all - it just identifies a politically correct target of hatred and then all's fair. Young people don't know if there is anything at all that is immoral (other than being politically incorrect).
Bette Jo, I'm not going to insult you personally. But you're not hearing my words. You keep saying baby and basically killing. That's what closes this conversation with me.
I have known women who knew when it was just a bunch of cells who have had abortions. What does that prove?
The issue is that this is not something to be legislated by the government ever.
I do agree with Tracy that trying to equate something that is forming, but not fully maturated is silly and just folly to a living breathing human being. Apples to oranges.
I know this is a heated topic and I've stated many times I'm ok with whatever conclusions people come to.
What is NEVER ok is to force any person, to have any medical test for any ideological reason especially by the government. What is never ok no matter what your conclusions is to force a woman to keep a pregnancy to term.
Each person who is BORN must have the liberty and freedom to make full choices and control over their own lives without any intrusion from any government regardless of what I would or would not do or think about abortion.
Bette Jo,
I don't know you and so I can not speak to your beliefs specifically - but as most anti-abortion people oppose RU-486, the pill that causes spontaneous abortion in the first 72 hours, it is because people believe that the single or several cell fetus has all the rights of an individual. Abortions in the first trimester, the child is barely recognizable. But any demand that women must behave in a way others feel is appropriate prior to being free to make choices about their own body is tyranny. And yes, the tyranny against an individual is greater violation than an abortion in the first trimester.
You disagree with that position and would probably disagree with the characterization that you support government intervention in the medical choices of individuals (what is the difference between this and Obamacare? nothing.)
I recommend On Liberty by John Stuart Mills. The tyranny of the society is often greater than the tyranny of the magistrate.
The individual is sovereign, and the child, prior to viability, is not an individual. (any suggestion that genetically the child is unique does not make the child an individual - unless s/he is viable)
Ok, I'll just put it out there right now that I'm a nurse, so for anyone who might say that will influence my opinions, there you go. I'm perfectly capable of putting away my nurse hat when I want to, though. I agree, it's a private matter! My personal beliefs are that we're here with free will as human beings & that no one should be able to tell us what to do. (Not talking about crimes, etc., but about these types of personal choices, obviously.) It's great for people to be informed about their choices, & I feel they're smart to be informed as much as possible. That being said, some people's ideas of being "informed" is very limited. They may just want to get a little bit of information & then go with that - but that is their choice!
If you want to look at it from a very limited medical perspective, the patient's choices trump everything else. Notice I didn't say "what's best for the patient" but their actual choices. We can recommend, suggest, inform, etc., but things cannot be forced on anyone. (being very simplistic here, I know) The government has no business forcing patients to do things, either! It's not like people are the government's patients, they are the doctor's patients. I think it's the same concept as someone coming into your house & telling you not to eat or drink something because it's bad for you. They're intruding in our lives way too much as it is, let alone telling people "go have a test done" before you make this decision. Maybe I don't want my decision to be based on a test or anything more than what I feel or believe! Who are they to tell me differently??
I may add to this later when I have more time. Now I'm going out to see what choices some of my patients have made lately. :)
You keep saying, "YOUR body," but the thing is, the object in question ISN'T "YOUR" body, it's someone else's body. (Unless you have suddenly grown testicles and a penis?) Do you have a right to determine what happens to someone else's body, just because of where it's located?
I have been pregnant also, and I can tell you that what was forming inside of me wasn't a "potential" life, but an ACTUAL life. The fact that she was on "life support" doesn't change this fact. What was moving and kicking around inside of me was definitely ALIVE, and it was definitely someone else. *I* wasn't the one doing the kicking. SHE was. If we were to use your definition of an "actual life", there are many BORN people who would not be considered human beings (because they are not walking, talking, breathing on their own).
Secondly, people cannot live independently of their parents until they are at least 18 years old! That means that even though they are no longer attached to the body, they are still dependent on their mother for food and shelter. One's level of dependence does not determine one's personhood.
Abortion is just age discrimination. When an embryo is just a few cells, that's just what a human being looks like at that age. Just like a newborn looks different from an 8-year old, who in turn looks different from a senior citizen. It's just a continuum from conception. They are ALL human beings. The fetus doesn't change species at birth, it's still a human being beforehand.
Your belief that women should be allowed to cruelly terminate a pregnancy is akin to asking to be allowed to go up to someone with a gun and blowing them away because they were "in your way". That fetus that you killed is someone's future husband or wife that you just killed, so how is it different?
I only let Kathryn's comment up to show the absolute emotional but completely intellectually wrong argument for this subject.
Personhood...MEH! BULLSHIT! NO SUCH THING. But go ahead and fight parent one and parent two.
You cannot have it both ways.
Everything has a potential to grow. A fetus will eventually become a human being. EVENTUALLY and potentially.
Really a baby that is born cannot live independently of it's parents. Hmmm, I guess then all those woman you are forcing to keep a pregnancy to term who then give the baby up for adoption die anyway because they cannot live independently.
Oh yes, another retarded statement from the looney antichoicers. Because of course a baby outside of the womb, full term can live unsupported by the placenta and breathing from the placenta through the mother's blood stream, which is doing the breathing for the fetus that eventually becomes a baby. You see fetus don't breathe air, and they don't breathe on their own either.
But never you mind because you can't debate with people who behave this way, who demand that you think and feel and make choices that they have concluded lest you then be a murderer.
So I don't know who you are, if you've been to my blog before or if we've been bloggy friends because you didn't leave an ID that lets me see who you actually are but nevertheless I can tell you to shove the fuck off because
IT IS NOT YOUR BODY, IT IS NOT THE FETUS BODY THAT COMES FIRST. It is the WOMANS body who is a human being who has been born, who feels and has breathed air, maturated to the point of being sexually active, and decides what happens in her uterus. PERIOD. FUCK OFF LUNATIC.
I'll not let one more comment up that calls me a killer. PERIOD.
It's ideological nonsense that is inflammatory.
What's next, they will tell me what I can and cannot do with my ovaries because I have half a human being in there? What a fucking bunch of shit!
Oh I know where Kathryn is from, Homer, Michigan. Hmmm why am I NOT surprised.
No more comments from those who scream murderer. It's psychotic and not something debatable. And Yes, Kathryn you are from Homer because I track ever person who comes to this site and I can see the time you put in the comment and it goes directly to your area in Michigan.
Just goes to show you how much these zealots lie. The Catholic crusades in our lifetime. Watch out!
I always find the position "its murder' to be confusing given they don't ask for criminal prosecution of the mother in the event of an abortion. That said, if we could remove a child 8 weeks after conception and place her/him on the table, we would find out exactly how independent the child is. Now, why is this different than the comatose patient? Well, first the comatose patient HAS rights. Just because they 'fell asleep' doesn't change that.
I formulated that rights are inherent in our existence, but they require a few things: thought (and therefore the structures and capacity for forming a thought), free will (the ability to make choices), and the ability to act on those choices. The comatose patient that no longer is capable of thought, has no rights - that's right, if the comatose patient is going to be kept alive, someone ELSE has to take the responsibility for him/her. The comatose patient can not demand that others provide for them any more than you and I can demand others care for us.
Anti-abortionists claim we are ignoring the rights of the child while they ignore the rights of the mother to her own body. Anti-abortionists claim gov has no right to demand they buy insurance or determine their medical care, but demand they can apply their rationale to OTHERS.
If someone claims to be pro-liberty, pro-individual rights, Constitutionalists and supportive of the founding fathers AND claims to be anti-abortion to the point of demanding anti-abortion laws, I claim they are full of shit.
Okay wait. Lauren obviously this is your blog and you get to control the comments you allow and which ones you don't. But just so you know, I was not calling you or anyone else a murderer. If you read my comment from the beginning, I said that most people that are anti-abortion believe the fetus is a life and in that respect would be considered murder. I was giving the other side, a different perspective, not beating anyone over the head or saying you were wrong or anything else. The only time I got a little snippy was when Tracy said what I was saying was just silly. But when I read your reactions to Kathryn, I have to wonder what's up? Why are you so defensive and insulted when someone disagrees with you on this subject? I am a bit confused. Hostility doesn't have to be part of a discussion, and I mean no disrespect to you. But .. I'm not getting the whole attitude about it. Why the personal attacks on Kathryn? And is there something wrong with Homer Michigan? I've never been there but my Mom was from Michigan. I live in Illinois. Does that mean we are not sophisticated enough to understand the complexities of the argument?
Note to self - don't post on Lauren's blog unless you plan to agree with her or she will blow your shit all to hell. I'll remember from now on.
Bette Jo, Why the hostility and personal attacks on me!? I've not done that to you.
Why my reaction to Kathryn? Are you kidding me. GO look at her insane words. Go look at her accusations.
My point about posting where she is from is to let her know I know who she is, she isn't going to troll on me.
you are the one taking this personally. Why so angry with Tracy? Tracy was way less reactive than I am on this topic. Why calling you or your point of view silly makes you so stirred up.
Calling Pot Black back on you.
Just tossing my two cents in...
I'm pro-choice. And I want a baby. Go figure, huh? I want to have a child, but I believe in a woman's right to the health of her body and decision making. Government has its hands dipped in too many issues already, it doesn't belong in a woman's body too.
Me personally - if a girlfriend of mine said she was pregnant and didn't know what to do - I'd suggest to look at various options, abortion isn't the only option, but one that would be discussed, including adoption.
And for the record... I had a miscarriage, but it was induced by the hospital, so yes, it was the same procedure as an abortion. The baby didn't have a heartbeat and doctor didn't want me hemorrhage. I went through three ultrasounds, two of them 2 weeks apart, to make sure the nurses didn't miss the heartbeat, but there was none. All of this stuff brings up memories I really don't like to go through. But it's real; it's honest.
I wouldn't want a woman to have an abortion, but I'm not going to say that she can't or judge her if she does.
And... folks... let's be real, ok? If abortions aren't allowed in hospitals and clinics, the old days will happen again. It will be underground abortions and that's damn scary.
For those of you who are anti-abortion, think about if you have a daughter and she gets pregnant.. doesn't want it and has to get an underground abortion. Hmmm.. THEN, what do you think? You'll risk her life to allow the government such decisions.
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